Navigating uncertainty like a Navy SEAL with Renita Kalhorn | Teams at Work Podcast by Bunch

Renita Kalhorn is an Executive Coach & former Navy SEALs trainer who works with impact tech founders and their teams to elevate their leadership communication skills, productivity and capacity for stress under pressure. She's worked with 1,300+ high-performers in 40 countries, from CXO start-up founders to military Special Forces, and has an MBA from INSEAD. As a Juilliard-trained concert pianist and martial arts black belt, Renita leverages the power of deliberate practice to help clients transform their thinking + behavior.

We talked about the new leadership landscape, the VUCA world we're living in, and what it takes to succeed in this environment - so you won't become anyone's bad boss story.

In this episode you’ll learn how to:

🌊 Overcome volatility by making things concrete

☀️ Counter uncertainty with daily rituals

💡 Unravel complexity with common sense

🥾 Give ambiguity the boot with clear de-briefs

Timecodes:

8:24 - The Biological Model of Irrationality
14:40 - Creating a System to Stay Active
20:12 - Challenges of Managing a Startup
26:54 - Navy SEALs and Entrepreneurs
32:57 - VUCA and Managing in Uncertain Times
38:40 - The Power of Self-Storytelling and Self-Kindness

Connect with Renita:

Connect with Darja:

LinkedIn | Twitter | Substack

Connect with Anthony:

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0:00:03

Hi, everyone. It's been a while, but we are back with the Teams of Work podcast and super excited to have an extremely amazing guest today and also very timely topic. Can't wait to share this with you. But before we dive all into the topic today, I would like to introduce you to my cofounder, Anthony Reo, and also our COO, who is co hosting the show with me.

Hey, Darja!

0:00:39

So today, we have Renita Kalhorn with us. Who has been an executive coach for over ten years. But what's even more amazing is that she has worked with extremely interesting individuals, not only in the actual business environment, but also with army special forces. So you worked with Navy SEALs and and dibbled into so many different context and environments region. I I really can't wait to to hear all the stories. Welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Super excited. Let's actually kick it off with the first question. So we prepared a little bit, and our overall topic today is really digging deeper on leadership and what leadership skills we actually might all need in the future. And, Lisa, you published so many insightful articles on the topic recently that I I couldn't wait to to actually hear about it. So, yeah, first but or first question right away, as a coach, you're helping executives grow and develop, of course.

0:01:46

What's your definition of leadership? And how do you differentiate that to being a manager? Yeah. That's That's a great question. And, you know, I think leadership is one of those words that has really lost a lot of its meaning So, you know, I'd like to make the distinction that instead of talking about leaders and managers, that we talk about the verbs leading and managing. Because I've heard people they sort of downplay man being a manager as if it's if it's inferior or lesser than somehow to being a leader. And I don't think that we should set it up as a, you know, a good or bad kind of situation. I think sometimes we need to be leading and sometimes we need to be managing. But I think the key skill that really distinguishes someone who leads and someone who from someone who manages is their ability to influence others without formal or direct authority. A manager is someone who always is it's a title. Right? It's something that is formal and and they have this this authority, but people might not listen to them otherwise if they didn't have that title. A leader is someone who could influence others to do things regardless of their title or their authority. And going forward, in this world that we live in, I'll probably talking about, you know, this this term VUCA, which is volatile and certain complex and ambiguous, and really sums up the world that we live in in this moment. Influence the ability to influence people's behavior and their actions is going to be key. For people who want to leave and manage. This is really interesting.

0:03:38

I'm glad to brought up the VUCA model. I really, really liked it because it does sum up kind of the environment we currently all swim in. Right? If you maybe just to dig deeper on that, if you were to sum up and you're talking to, let's say, a new a new manager who just got into a new role at a very exciting, fast paced company. There's plenty out there. And you were to advise them on what they should be looking at as the skills that they really, really need and probably have to pay a lot of attention to in building. What would those be? What kind of is selection? Yeah. Yeah.

0:04:21

I think the first thing I would say is we are in the era. This VUCA era is the era of not knowing. So there is no way to know everything now. And I think in the past, people who are in leadership or management positions feel like they have to know they have to know the answer regardless of how complex the situation is. And what I see sometimes is people in situations where they don't know, and they're pretending they do. Or they're they're acting like they they know more they do than they do or they're just not willing to admit what they don't know. And I I wanna be clear, you have to know certain things. You have to know your metrics, your numbers. You know, there's a there's a list of things that you probably should know. But there are in a VUCA world that where things are moving so quickly and constantly, there's no way you can know everything.

0:05:20

And I think that that skill, maybe you wanna call it, vulnerability, the ability to say, alright. Here's what I know and here's what I don't know. You know, I I can talk more about skills. You certainly need more skills than that. But I think that's kind of the basic mindset that, you know, new leaders and managers need to really start to embrace and get comfortable with That's really, really it's a very good observation and a very good point because I do think vulnerability is what it all revolves around right now when we look into challenges of leaders, but also just looking into our user community.

0:06:06

I think a lot of challenges that we get submitted are actually related to how do I build trust? How am I vulnerable? While I'm also supposed to kind of exert hope and and help -- Mhmm. -- inspire progress. Do you have any thoughts on this? Why? And and also it would be maybe interesting to hear your perspective on why is it so hard for us actually to be vulnerable? Oh, yeah. That that one I can certainly answer.

0:06:33

I mean, it goes back to our biology. And I think that's something we really need to keep in mind now is that we're wired to be looking out for our own survival. Our brain is always looking for potential threats on the horizon. And so if you think back to our caveman days, if we didn't know the answer or if we got it wrong, then we were a liability to the tribe. And we could very well be thrown out of the tribe, which back then was a survival threat. And I just think that's just so internalizing us that just even saying the words I got it wrong really is hard to say or I don't know. It just feel so you just feel so exposed, I think, even though it's it's it's pretty rational in these days. So that's vulnerability.

0:07:27

And then how do I build trust? And what I guess what's interesting is that's how you build trust is by being vulnerable. By being willing to admit that you don't know everything that you did make a mistake. Because what that says is I'm less interested in my survival then in in connecting with you, then in doing what's best for the tribe. I'm interested in the greater good, not just protecting my own ego. My own sense of comfort. And so that is is what I'm teaching my clients now is that that's that's the fundamental ingredient of trust. That ability to show to put aside your own self protection and and express the the ability to look at the greater good. And when people see that, that's when trust is immediate. It can be as quick as one conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Don't forget, Anthony.

0:08:25

I'm actually I'm actually really interested in following up on this because I think having having written my thesis on kind of the biological dimension of a lot of this stuff. I'm very interested in how your clients receive a lot of that. Do they do they ingest a lot of this you know, the biological survival dimensions of trust building, vulnerability, and performance? Maybe you can touch on that a bit. Oh, they love it. Because it explains all the stuff, all the irrational stuff that was happening at the office.

0:08:53

Why people you know, behave a certain way. Why they behave a certain way? So one client is like, oh, this is why I always have to insist that I'm right. I can't back down. No matter how, you know, internally, I can I can feel that I'm I'm not getting anywhere, and it's just so hard to back down and admit that you're you're not right? So it it kind of explains, you know, I have a model, the the fast model to to indicate five of the the social survival triggers in our environment. And so that really helps give them something concrete. It's a tool that they can use to map out a situation, you know, a difficult conversation or negotiation or a board meeting beforehand. So they can be kind of aware of what might be the the triggers that come up in the meeting for them and for all the people in the meeting. So, yeah, they find it very useful to understand the biology. So there's a certain actionability and understanding even just the the the kind of physical realm of all this stuff is what I hear. Yeah. Yeah. You just feel more in control. Even if you're still triggered, now you know what's going on. Oh, okay. That's a fight or flight reaction. I don't actually have to react in the way that I always do and screw up the situation like I always do. Now I have a choice because I know what's going on. I know it's not, you know, a real survival situation. Right. Super cool.

0:10:22

Then, I guess, zooming out. How how have looking back at the last three months, which I which I think have been I think for the lack of a better way to say it, momentous for the world, but also specifically for leaders, how have the recent events from the virus to also just specific social movements and everything that's happened over the last two months impacted the way leaders have learned and the way your clients have spoken to you about their challenges and and the way they've learned. Yeah. I think the last couple months have just been the embodiment of Vuca. Right? And it's I don't think it's an anomaly. I think this is the way the world will be going forward. Maybe not all at once all the time, but it's gonna be this kind of unexpected unpredictable volatile things happening.

0:11:09

And I think one of the key skills that people need to develop is adaptability. So that sense of, oh, can't we just you know, when this is over, when we go back to normal, that is not going to be a good leadership mindset. The the leadership mindset is, okay, here's how things are now, and here's what we're going to do. And then they're just managing everybody's attention and helping them stay focused on a vision for the near term and and being very strategic about it. And then I guess I would add to that. They need that ability to serve that to be grounded and and stay calm or at least to master themselves to to achieve some some degree of calmness so that because if they're flying off the handle, every time something unexpected happens, you know, that's where you lose people. Yeah. Yeah.

0:12:03

And I I I think it's been particularly tough having hours and hours and hours of Zoom calls and being stuck at home It's been particularly tough I think on our biological systems, but also our psychological systems to kind of live up to this. Do you have any tips there for for for people that are stuck on Zoom calls for for twelve to fifteen hours a day, eight to fifteen hours a day to kind of get a bigger range in there. Do you have any tips on how they can how they can self manage? Yeah. Yeah. It's it's not ideal. That's for sure. I don't think human beings are meant to spend their lives in front of a screen. I mean, we were doing it a lot already before, and now it's just become relentless.

0:12:46

I think it takes a lot more self management, which means you have to create some kind of system for yourself where you're you know, getting up after every every call, taking some physical movements. The flip side is, you know, now maybe you can have a yoga mat in the room and do some stretches or do some push ups. Between each call, but you really need to be very intentional about managing yourself. Because otherwise, inertia will take over and you could just sit at your desk not drinking, not moving for for three or four or more hours. So it takes it takes a little more discipline and just intentionality. And it's not easy. But, you know, have a plan and then gradually train yourself to follow that plan.

0:13:35

Can I can I maybe jump in and just ask curiosity? Yeah. Just ask how how has it been for you personally as well? Have you been able to kind of, yeah, device that system for yourself and and stick to it and and and if not, which probably for most people, it kind of breaks in in some parts. How have you been able to to experiment iterate on on -- Yeah. -- the breading system for yourself? Yeah.

0:14:01

So, I mean, I I would say that I'm pretty fortunate because I was used to this lifestyle before. I've been coaching online now for years and working out at my home. And that's interesting. I thought you were actually also kind of doing face to face sessions. It was it always virtual? I was doing live training whenever I'm training a group. That's in person. But coaching was always online. Interesting. Yeah. So that so that I could be anywhere, and, you know, my my clients were in forty countries. And I sense, of course, with executives. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And I just wanted to work with an international clientele.

0:14:40

But I kind of got very systematic about the process once, you know, this this because I I I'm very much about going to the gym, and that was my, you know, that was my moment to go outside into the world and, you know, interact with other people. And now that was gone. So I I I realized I had to really create a system. Otherwise, I could just end up sitting and working all day. So I have a a pull up bar, you know, on the on the doorway. I have a yoga mat on the floor. And I just I'm working on this. It's not perfect, but really try and integrate, you know, stretching routines in the middle of the afternoon, doing pull ups, every time I get up to to go to the bathroom or or the kitchen. Nice. That's a goal. You know, just just that And it's in fact, what's interesting is there's that always that moment of, ah, I don't wanna do it this time.

0:15:34

Yeah. If I do do it, then there's this sense of okay. It's just like this instant sense of in energy that translates into into my work. If I'm writing an article, if I'm I'm reaching out to somebody. So it's a it's a great self training environment, actually. Because I don't really feel like doing any of those things.

0:15:58

But, you know, once I create a system, and I I track it. You know, I have a tracker so that I track my habits, my steps, my, you know, my stretching. You want a sense of oh, and I would add that, actually. A tracker is great. Something physical. I know there are a lot of apps but I like to do it on paper so that I can actually see and have the physical activity of marking, you know, a box because I the the the thing with the Zoom calls, it's it's so abstract. You sit down for a meeting, you look at a bunch of boxes on the screen, you get up after the meeting and the so you don't know what happened. Right? There's no record of what just happened. In that hour and then that in that day and then that week.

0:16:46

And so we need to find ways to concretize our life. So, you know, I have index cards. I write things on index cards, so I can hold them post it. You know, I'm very much about writing things down by hand. This is so interesting because I'm just actually as you as you were speaking, I was taking notes in my notebook, physics, with my pen. Mhmm. And I've never been using it so much.

0:17:12

Like, I'm systematic about doing, like, checkboxes. Literally, like, drawing a checkbox that I can tick off by the end of the day for my to do list. I haven't and those that that know me I'm sure Anthony seeing how, like, little physical I actually in the end am. I'm not one of these people that does, like, five hundred posts. It's around them all the time, but this this time really taught me to I I have definitely this need that you were just referencing. Yeah. To really concretize Yeah.

0:17:42

And I think it creates a sense of of being there's there's no sense of satisfaction. So, you know, sometimes I envy people who repair motor cycles or who do things that are physical with their hands because they see what it was like before, and then they see what it was like after. And for us who work, you know, online most of the day, we don't have end of its new ones. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We don't have a concrete expression of of the work that we're doing. And I think as humans, that's that's that can be hugely unsatisfying. And so we need to find a way to create that somehow.

0:18:23

I do think there's a sense of I do think there's a sense of what I've told myself over the last couple days is it's almost and I think Darja, that's what you're getting out of your notes. Right? It's almost a sense of, like, permanence. It's almost a sense of is not gonna fade away in two seconds. The Zoom call is not just gonna end and then things are gonna fall off my screen.

0:18:40

I think when you're working with note even if you're done with that page, Darja. Right? You check it off, but it still exists. So it's almost extensive, like, it's not a fleeting satisfaction before. But it's No. No. But it sounds like I've been yeah. I've been here. This was not a dream. This really happened, and now we've moved on to the next Yeah. And then when you go back to that page, when you're flipping through, now you're gonna have more of a sensory memory of that time. Which I don't think you get, just looking at notes on a screen. No. And your your to dos go off your screen. Typically, my to dos system on my screen. When I when I check something off, it literally disappears. And I think that's just this very kind of very very fleeting reward, whereas I think when you're working with real stuff in real life, It stays with you for sure. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.

0:19:30

I want to bring us back a little bit to to these to the skills we need to build, to survive in the VUCA and thrive in the VUCA. So, like, already, this is a new environment, which we maybe don't have the skills for and we're not prepared for and we didn't train for, as well as we should have, but we didn't. But also because of hookah and fifteen hour, we need to find a good name for this, I think. Fifteen hour Zoom call days. Mhmm. Needs. This alone is a phenomenon, a phenomenon.

0:20:12

We have this Monday meeting marathon because we're trying to not have meetings well the other day. So we do all meetings on Monday, and it literally leads to a fifteen hour day. In a startup environment, being a founder, we have, like, you know, the team stops at, like, I don't know, six seven or something. And then we keep going for a management meeting for, like, about two hours. It's, yeah, it's tricky. It does help with the productivity.

0:20:35

But what I was trying to say is, I think the other challenge that we see as managers and as leaders and as aspiring managers as leaders is that we don't actually barely like, we don't have any time anymore to learn new things either. So that's, I think, makes it very tricky because in order to internalize, how do I even I mean, how am I vulnerable in front of my team? Like, what can I do? Do I watch YouTube videos? Do I, like, read books? Even if I do commit to that, like, what is what is my my equivalent of pull up bar for these very kind of tacit skills. How can I build them up while being in so meetings fifteen hours a day? I think that's Well, I'll say something maybe a little provocative, which is you might not need any more information.

0:21:25

What I would recommend is that you start learning, you, you know, being a general you, learning more from your actual experience. So what I've noticed is most people, and I've just written an article about this, they extract maybe five percent of the learning from their learn their lived experience. Meaning, they have a meeting, things don't go well, and then they but they just go on to the next thing. And they might look back and say, oh, that didn't go well. They might feel bad about it. They might identify one thing that, you know, they could do differently. But they don't really mind that meeting for all the learning.

0:22:02

And I think if you can just take fifteen minutes a day, to do, you know, in the military, they do deep briefs of all their missions. That's how they identify their mistakes, what went wrong, or the decisions they made? What was the communication around the decisions? What you know, what went wrong with the execution of the decisions? They break down everything. And so now Did they do this daily? They do it after missions. So maybe it's not daily. But I'm talking about a fifteen minute routine.

0:22:34

So taking that same attitude into your day, looking at the day as a mission, and saying, alright, what were the decisions I made? What how did I communicate around those decisions? You know, execution of those decisions? Or as I write about in the article, I talked with Chris Holmberg, an executive coach who talks about the it, the we, and the I. So the it is everything that happened. The we is me, my team, my board, my my stakeholders. And then I, how did I manage myself? And so you just look at those three elements every day, and you and you just kind of identify what went well and what didn't go well. And now you have something to take into the next day, and then you can try something different and and play with that. And then So now you have compound learning instead of having to have the same experience.

0:23:26

If you have, you know, fifteen meetings, you're probably not changing that much from meeting to meeting. You know, wherever you go, that's super interesting. That's super interesting. I I love this. I'm going to try this now. I'm actually well while you were speaking, I was thinking, I'm going to make myself a calendar invite, which is going to be my reflection fifteen minutes.

0:23:48

At the end of the day because another challenge we all struggle with is we don't know how to end. So we have this thing since a year or so, which we call date night, which is, like, this one day in the week where we, like, need to go off screen earlier, then we do the people do. Nice. Nice. To yeah. To go and and be with our partners. And, like, the the fact that we have it in our calendars, I think, showcases how bad it was before we we actually didn't manage, so we were kind of fuzzying out every day. And now we're good with that, I think. But it's still definitely tricky to find an end to the day. So I think what I'm gonna try is to put myself this reminder then do the three reflection questions and then see how that goes. This is super, super actionable. Thank you for sharing that. Well, and I'm gonna I would add to that.

0:24:33

It's not easy. You know, the power of inertia is you wanna keep doing what you're already doing. So the pull just to keep on working is really strong. Yeah. So it's not just okay. I know I gotta stop at six. I'll stop at six. That's not how you can make sure. I'm not done yet. Yes. Yes. One more thing. Oh, let me check my email. Oh, look at that. Oh, yeah. I forgot to do that. Right? That And then the rabbit hole, the rabbit hole, and the rabbit hole, like, oh, Yeah.

0:25:00

Like, you see this one thing, and then it reminds you of this other thing that you didn't do, so you jumped to that thing. And then it reminds you of this other thing. So you're trying to do five things at the same time. Obviously, none of them, like, properly. Yeah. Definitely hear you. Yeah. So understanding that it's going to be difficult. Is helpful, I think.

0:25:17

And I had an idea around the fifteen hour days if that's something that actually is you know, something you've decided and and it is helping your productivity. If you kinda treat it like, you know, in in the in the seals, they have buds or they have, you know, the bud's training, which is and they call it hell week because it's it's almost a week of just like this hell is training. Mhmm. But that's where the the the guys realize how much they're actually capable of. Because it's it's really hard to push yourself on your own So what you might do is just kinda create this energy around this, I don't know, hell day, hell zoom day, where it's gonna be fifteen hours of calls.

0:26:03

And you're just out there, like, lifting everybody up. You know? You know it's painful. You know it's hard. But you're doing something hard together and you just kinda change the mindset around it. You're not you're not changing what you're actually doing because you're still having those fifteen calls. But if there's just an energy to it that you don't have when it's just like, oh, here we go again. Yeah. And it's also about the common mission. Right? Like the shared mission, we gotta get through this. We know why we're not doing it because we have a productive week after. So let's do this. And it's actually really interesting. I think last week somebody also called me out on the team saying like, hey, why do I have Tuesday meeting. It's supposed to happen on Monday. No. No. No. No. That needs to go into Monday. This is our fifteen hour Zoom call. Monday is, like, why is this? What is the story? Am I too stressed? Slippery slope. Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's definitely super interesting.

0:26:54

Anthony, did you have any follow ups on this? Otherwise, I I keep going here. I actually I actually have a I wanna zoom out again. I mean, I think that's lovely and and very actionable. I mean, Rene, so my big question there is when when looking back at all the work you've done with the with the military and with the folks in the field, So for the leaders out there, what what does a Navy SEAL have in common with a leader or an executive?

0:27:21

And what are the differences perhaps that they should be aware of? Yeah. So I often tell entrepreneurs how much they are like navy SEALs because they're they have to be agile. They're working in small teams, often in stealth mode. They have to be very adaptable and and, you know, they're usually very mission focused. So there are a lot of similarities between just just the way they have to be looking at the world. And and I think adaptability and that sense of we're a team here trying to do impossible things. Is is something that they very much have in common. You know, and I would say that the difference is something the seals have that, you know, it's hard to to sort of simulate in a work environment is that they're basically living together. They're, you know, when they're out when they're deployed, their lives are very integrated. And so they're they really get to know each other at a personal level. And that's why they develop such a strong bond of trust. And so, of course, you know, in in the professional world, that's not possible. But I would say that that's one reason why they do have such lifelong trust trusted relationships with each other.

0:28:39

And if you were to give you were to give one piece of advice for those for those teams and leaders out there that I guess, are trying to live up to the professional version of what would be a tight knit sealed seal squad. What would be the one tip? Is it the trust? Is it trying to get as vulnerable on the professional day to day to establish as much trust as possible? Or is it something else? Well, the best deals are vulnerable. The ones I can say, you know, I screwed up to take responsibility or extreme ownership for their mistakes.

0:29:13

I think we could be bringing in more of that personal sense of caring. So something I've noticed with And I train with the navy SEAL candidates. So what I've noticed and we had former navy SEALs coming in to train them in the physical portion. What I've noticed is they they can speak to them very harshly, you know, using profanities and calling them names. But it comes from a place of caring. You can just see that they really care about them. So we're making things hard for them so that they can get strong, so that they won't so that they won't be weak in battle, basically. And I feel like that sense of caring is something we could bring more to the professional environment because that's really what people want. They wanna feel like people care about them, and then they will give all kinds of effort. I think that's fantastic.

0:30:10

I think that's I think for some for a lot of folks out there, I think the sports team metaphor is a bit more accessible. Right? And I think internally, we also use kind of passing the ball and being kind of the dream team and all that. But I think there are a lot of folks, and I know the recent book, the culture code, maybe it's not so recent actually, but he has a whole chapter in there about navy SEALs and the culture and how -- Yes. -- how to kind of apply it at work. Right? Yes. Yeah. That's a great book.

0:30:37

And and, you know, one of the examples he's if he gives is a a Dave Cooper, a Navy SEAL, who's who's sort of recognized as the guy who builds the best teams. And he's the one that says, you know what, guys? I screwed up. Or he'll come in with a plan, and he'll say, alright. What what did I miss with this plan? And, you know, that's not an attitude that you see in the movies about Navy SEALs, where you just think they just go charging in and they don't show any weakness. But what I've seen is that the best special forces are able to show that side of of I don't know everything. You know, we're in this together. I need your help. Yeah. It kinda pulls it back full circle to what you said at the beginning of the conversation. Right? The -- Mhmm. -- the the I can't know anything and kind of you know, getting people to embrace the fact that, no, you can't know anything and it's actually okay, but also good if you admit it. And it actually helps your team and and your company bond and and come together even stronger. Yeah.

0:31:39

Now the the thing that the piece that I would add to this is often people they might hear some advice like this. There's all this advice about vulnerability. They go into a meeting And basically, they I'm gonna air quotes here. They get it wrong. They're vulnerable in a way that's needy or insecure or it's not coming from a place of confidence. And then they they think that didn't work. I'm not gonna do that again. And so they think they don't wanna be vulnerable because of the of how it didn't work for them. And so what I'm seeing now is that people really need to train in this new way of being, to train, to be more vulnerable, to train to have more empathy, to train to be more curious. Because all these books I think you alluded to this before. There are so many, you know, helpful psychological concepts out there. Mhmm. And people don't know how to put them into action. And then when they do, they don't get a good result, so they think that the concept doesn't work, or even worse, they think there's something wrong with them. Because they think everybody else knows how to do it and they don't. And so that can really be a hit to their confidence. Yeah. Yeah. I'm have have so many ideas.

0:32:57

I was actually just reflecting on kind of the older awesome points he made throughout this super quick. Actually, it's been half an hour, and we've had so many points home, I think, just wanted to maybe debrief quickly. I think we talked about the calmness that we all need. And I think we we have a different podcast episode on that. Actually, with Karl Alomar, which came out just recently after COVID-19 was a pandemic. And he was talking all about when you're really, really, when shit hits the fan, you really need to step two steps back and be slower than you usually are and not panic and and be as rational as you can be. So I think it's really important point, but then at the same time around vulnerability and trust, I think most leaders and managers kind of understand at this point that they're related, they need to be vulnerable, they need to be authentic, in order to build trust, but the big how.

0:33:56

I think it's like you just described. It's I get it. It's fine. Brene Brown and all, like but I don't still don't know how. And my days are fifteen hours alcohol. So how and when will I figure it out? And then you made a really great point that it's compounding effect of of it aggregates over time. Right? So it's not about having one whole day to, like, grow yourself. It's really about the fifteen minute reflections. At the end of each day, at the end of each week, or at the end of each mission -- Mhmm. -- that really can make a difference. Absolutely. And we have made this, I think, a stretch towards this concretization of our lives that we actually lack these artifacts right now and that we're trying to to find replacements of them. So I think so many great ideas. I'm I want to drill down on all of them. I'll definitely I think we'll definitely have to have a follow-up on this for sure.

0:34:54

But for now, I think is there any kind of like last minute thoughts or advice or tips if you think we didn't speak about that in this VUCA conversation, when I am listening to this episode right now as a manager. I really should know about and we didn't actually talk about Well, I would say that the key skill that we didn't touch on yet and is that people need to learn how to to love themselves, to be kind to themselves. And, you know, my high performer clients struggle with this because they think, no, if I'm kind to myself, then I won't be motivated to achieve anymore. And I think that's a fundamental misunderstanding. And so, you know, sort of my stealth mission is to help people learn how to to love themselves and to be kind to themselves, which paradoxically is what's gonna help them perform better and to learn faster. Could we unpack this for a few a few more seconds or minutes? Because I think it's super important.

0:36:05

I've had this conversation with an executive not so long ago where we hit it exactly this point. It was more around perfectionism and kind of like to strive for excellence. Right? And if I am relaxed and if I trade discipline for self care, how do I make sure that I actually still achieve excellence. And I really struggle to answer this question to him because I I totally understand the logic. I also know there's there is a flaw in it somehow because in reality, it works the other way around when I'm self care and I am in much better place and a much better mind space, I'm definitely much more performant. But what is your perspective on? Like, how does this actually logically work? Why do I perform better if I'm actually maybe not a stress out about my highly ambitious goals. So I don't know if the executive actually said the word lacks if I'm relaxed, how does that work? I don't think so. It was more about discipline, I think. Okay. But I think that's the attitude that people have. So they they think that the pendulum swings all the way, you know, the other way, like, okay. If I'm just sitting on the couch, taking care of myself, how am I supposed to achieve? And that's not what I'm talking about.

0:37:15

It's really if if you if we want a zone in just for this conversation, it's how you talk to yourself. After, let's say, after you did screw up or make a mistake, do you berate yourself, fagellate yourself, feel ashamed, feel embarrassed, Or do you say, oh, ouch, that really hurts. Doesn't it? You know, and then you just kinda talk to yourself. Talk to your seven year old self. That hurts. Doesn't it? We we worked so hard for that, and it still didn't work out. You know? And then you just kinda give yourself to, like, you know, Pat, your seven year old's head. Right? Your inner child, basically, which, you know, could be a whole another conversation.

0:37:54

But just kind of talk to yourself as if you were that that child who that's really who what's feeling the pain. Right? Is that your your inner child? And then you say, alright. So we're gonna try again. And you just coach yourself with a kind of voice. It's not like you're saying, you know, we don't have to do that. You're saying, okay. We're gonna try it again, and this time, we're gonna do it this way. Okay? I think you can do this. Right? Isn't that how you talk to to a young child that you wanna encourage? But most people don't talk to their own inner child like that. They they're very scathing, critical, harsh, and then they wonder why they don't have confidence and why they don't they're not motivated.

0:38:40

I think that's fantastic, Renita. I think I think it speaks to a lot of the research that's been done around the power of the story you tell yourself and how that's actually one of the it's kind of the x factor and whether you'll actually get up and and do the same thing again and then ultimately succeed ten x, you know, x number of times down the road. Right? I think that's that's really good advice. And if I could, just add just the biology to that because this really crystallized it for me.

0:39:04

So what happens when you make a mistake is you see yourself as a threat. And so that's why it's hard to be so kind to yourself. Because it's at a primal level, you see yourself as a threat, so you're having a fight or flight reaction to yourself. And so it's very hard to say. Just walk up to that saber two tiger and pat him on the head when when instead you wanna fight or you wanna run. And so that's why it's hard to be kind to yourself. And so people need to understand that as well. That must hit home for a lot of the executives out there.

0:39:40

I think that's really great. I think so. It's been an amazing conversation. Thank you so much for taking time and also taking a bit more time than we planned don't want to be mindful though, also for our listeners time. So thank you so much for everyone who's been listening. It's been really great to have you all, and it's been amazing to listen and and to have this conversation with you, Renita.

Thank you, Darja. Thank you, Anthony.

Thank you, Renita.

Awesome. That's a wrap. So we'll hear you soon in the next episode, and we'll keep you posted, of course, on for the developments.